Why Ohio State football fans should care about Michigan’s spring game: Buckeye Talk podcast

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- This episode of Buckeye Talk is all about getting to know thy enemy, which matters when discussing the greatest rivalry in sports.

Ohio State closed out its spring session last week with the first nationally televised spring game, and now Michigan is set to become the second on Saturday. In preparation, Stephen Means is joined by Jimmy Watkins as the two discuss what’s going on in Ann Arbor as the Wolverines embark on a new era under Sherrone Moore.

Plus, an unnecessarily long conversation about why JJ McCarthy was the perfect OSU villain and how Michigan plans to follow that up.

Lastly, they look at the reasons why the Wolverines could still be a threat in 2024.

Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Stephen Means (00:12.181)

Stephen Means (00:22.281)Welcome to the Buckeye Talk. I’m Stephen Means, Nathan and Andrew, not with us today, because we’re actually not even doing Buckeye Talk. We’re doing Wolverine talk today. We’re just checking in on Ohio State’s rival, quite frankly, because Ohio State’s spring is done.

Jimmy Watkins (00:30.71)

realties.

Stephen Means (00:46.889)

Michigan spring will be over on Saturday as they’re the second team that has a nationally televised spring game on Saturday on Fox. Fox is obviously in Columbus this past weekend. And now they’ll be in Ann Arbor. So I’m joined by Jimmy Watkins, our rivalry reporter, who was at the Ohio State Spring Game. He’s not going to be at the Michigan spring game. He would have been, but the Cleveland Cavaliers are in the playoffs and Cleveland team, not even a team we cover full time.

That’s what you know, just kind of do, you weigh it out a little bit. But we do want to check in on where Michigan is and just really, I emailed him, I actually emailed Jimmy when I was putting together this plan, it’s what the heck is going on with Michigan is what this pod is going to be. Because obviously the last time we saw them play football was in the national championship game. They won that, JJ McCarthy is starting quarterback, Jim Harbaugh, the head coach.

JJ McCarthy is going to get drafted next week and maybe he’s a top 10 draft pick. And maybe we can touch on that a little bit on this pot as well. That’s Jimmy shakes his head and Jim Harbaugh is also in the NFL coaching the LA chargers and Michigan is basically, I don’t want to say starting the reset button, Jimmy, but it is kind of a transition with Sharon Moore being the head coach. So.

You cover a lot of different stuff, but you’re keeping your eye on everything to an extent. And we’re not looking for a deep dive into what Michigan is doing, but just from the outside, looking in what have been your early impressions of Michigan’s program under Sharon Moore.

Jimmy Watkins (02:13.526)

Man, has any national champion ever had a quieter off-tip? Or not a quiet, a lot of stuff happened. A lot of stuff happened, but like, as it pertains to the advancement of Michigan football, has any national champion had a quieter off-season than Michigan? I don’t know that we have a ton to go off of with Chiron. I know, but from what I do have, I don’t think it’s going awesome over there right now. I mean, like, we’ve got a defensive line coach that resigned. We’ve got Dynard Robinson, Michigan legend.

Stephen Means (02:19.785)

Man, without football stuff.

Stephen Means (02:35.)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (02:42.99)

who’s I think he was working in like the player development office or something like that. He suspended indefinitely after getting an OVI, OWI, I don’t know the official criminal language with that sort of thing. I don’t think they did an awesome job putting a staff together. I get the continuity higher. You want to keep people in the building that are important from last year’s team. But like Kurt Campbell as an OC.

Stephen Means (02:45.642)

Hmm.

Stephen Means (02:53.486)

One of those things. Yeah, it’s-

Jimmy Watkins (03:11.69)

The last time he was an OC, he got fired at Old Dominion. Okay, that’s not to say he can’t have made progress since then. And now he’s playing, he’s calling plays with Michigan players. I mean, I don’t even know. I don’t think they’ve even decided who’s gonna call the plays yet. But like if that’s what ends up happening, I don’t feel great about that. Wink Martindale is an NFL veteran who, let’s be honest, he’s the defensive coordinator of Michigan this year. He wants to get out of there as soon as possible. He wants an NFL job, but the guy eats, sleeps, breathes football, so.

I’ll go over here where they’re already running my defense. Let’s get after it. And then, I mean, like the vibe check that I did at the combine with some Michigan beat people was kind of just like, meh. Like they were telling me like, they were giving, they gave me the impression that Sharone is trying to be a little bit too much Jim in the, like Jim in the way that he walls himself off from the media. And it’s like one of those things where

Stephen Means (03:42.934)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (03:53.037)

Ha!

Jimmy Watkins (04:08.17)

You’ve watched a great person run a program the certain way. And so you just think, oh, if I just do that, we’re going to be fine. And it’s like, nah, man, like you have to, you have just because you’re taking a baton and like, uh, taking a conveyor belt that’s already running, that doesn’t mean you can’t put your own spin on it. And honestly, not to whine as a media person, but like if Michigan’s going to go eight and four this year, like a lot of people think they are, you might want to be a little bit nicer to people that are covering you. So.

We don’t have a ton to go off of, I don’t think it’s going great. That’s my initial impression.

Stephen Means (04:42.177)

So I’m just going to use parallels here because I do cover Ohio State and I was there when they had a coaching transition that was very similar to this, right? You had a guy who was basically a coaching legend. You’re having conversations of Urban Meyer is probably one of the three best coaches in Ohio State football history, right? That’s pretty, I mean him, Jim Trestle and Woody Hayes, probably in the opposite order, but still those are probably the top three.

Jimmy Watkins (04:48.747)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (05:03.197)

Ryan Day is his OC for two years, fixes his offense, literally fixes his offense and fixes his quarterback play. And so they hand the job off to him. And to your point, we were asking some of those same questions. It’s like, Hey, Ryan, what are you going to do in this program to make it your own? And there is that balance, right? Of this is working. We’re competing for national championships. We’re winning the big 10 every year. We’re beating Michigan every year.

There’s a lot of stuff that probably just doesn’t have to change. There is a if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it mentality. But also a lot of the other stuff you listed didn’t exist at Ohio State at the time, Ryan Day had one job. Go find a quarterback. Hello, Justin Fields going into the transfer portal because Georgia picked Jake from, which was fine with the national championship game. It’s OK.

and fire everybody not named Larry Johnson on the defense. And he literally I don’t know if he fired everybody. That’s probably not. But he did not keep anybody not named Larry Johnson on the defense. Paired it with Chase Young, Jeff Okuda, Jordan Fuller, Malik Harrison. I can keep going. Had the best defense in the country. One of the best quarterbacks and a record breaking running back. Cool. Everything’s going to be OK under Ryan Day. Jim Harbaugh kind of left your own more with, you know.

There’s sanctions out there. Obviously some have already come out for the recruiting thing. We’re still waiting on the signs, stealing stuff. So he’s already dealing with that. And maybe this is going to end up sounding like a, Hey, Ohio say, this is why you should feel good about November 30th come the fall, but is Tony Alford being snatched away from Ohio state? The best thing that, that Michigan has going on for itself, other than returning the best cornerback in the country and Will Johnson.

Jimmy Watkins (06:44.558)

Damn, that’s a brutal way to look at it. It’s the best headline they’ve made this off season. I don’t think that’s really even debatable because Jim Arbaugh didn’t just leave. He took like the best coaches with him. He took the DC, he took the strength coach that was so heralded that I wrote a feature about him last off season as an Ohio media outlet. Yeah, I guess there’s still a lot of off season left.

Stephen Means (06:50.457)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (06:56.705)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (07:13.13)

is what I would say in conjunction with that. And I do wanna be careful not to paint Michigan as like, you know, an already washed champion. Because I do think they’re gonna still have some bite left and I do think that there are things that Sharon can do that he’s been doing, similar to what Ryan Day was already doing good things for Ohio State, that could continue to propel the program forward. But right now, in this small window that we have, yeah, Tony offered the biggest story.

Michigan, I mean, they got a new head coach, but like probably after that, biggest story at Michigan is the running backs coach just because he came from Ohio state and I don’t even know, you guys know the Ohio state recruiting story better than I do. It’s not even because Tony Alford is like the Brian Hart line of running backs, right? It’s just because we got one over on you. Ha ha ha. And now we have eyes, eyeballs in your facility. Like.

Stephen Means (08:06.987)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (08:11.838)

You know, I’m sure we know that Chip Kelly’s gonna change some things. We know that Ryan Day is obviously gonna have to change some things up in response to Michigan having a guy that was on his staff last year. But like now Michigan has intimate knowledge of Ohio State’s football program in a way that it didn’t before. That’s worth something.

Stephen Means (08:30.253)

So you write about rivalries. So I think you’re almost a perfect person, at least at our company, to ask this question too and this concept too. And what you’re talking about, the whole there’s a guy in your program who is now at the other program, who is also, that program is coming off of a season where there’s already allegations that they were illegally getting information about your program.

That’s its whole other thing in itself, which I think is just more comical than it is an analytic take, but how intriguing is that really when that rolls around the fact that Tony offered is going to be over there when we get to that week, are you like seething at the teeth at the opportunity to dive in to write and something about that? Or is that just something that because of what the business of college football is sometimes it can be something made to be something more than it maybe is.

Jimmy Watkins (09:24.502)

I’m of two minds. One, I don’t know that I will be seething at the teeth to write something bad. I wrote something about it when it happened and I think that’s until, unless Tony Alford comes out wearing a F Ohio State shirt during the middle of that week, I don’t know if there’ll be anything else to talk about at that point. Or if he steals recruit or something like that. But I do think, when I’m writing, I basically wrote the column that like.

Stephen Means (09:33.122)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (09:51.37)

Like really this guy, this is the guy who’s gonna go over, you know, days, the longest tenured assistant under Day or one of him and Larry who are holdovers from Urban, like who played for an Ohio State legend in college, who met Urban Meyer, Urban was an assistant on that staff when Tony Offert was playing at Colorado State. Like you have so many, if,

Stephen Means (10:12.374)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (10:18.386)

You have so many Buckeye ties to you. Like if being a Buckeye doesn’t mean enough to you not to go to Michigan, then like what does it mean? I was trying to tap into like a fan base’s heartbeat right there. And it’s like just the timing of it. Like you mentioned, Michigan spying on us. I’m not saying that that’s necessarily what happened, but that’s how Ohio State fans feel. They’re spying on us. They just cheated to win.

Stephen Means (10:43.532)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (10:47.49)

three straight big championship games and like, now you’re gonna go over there and help them cheat? Why now? Why this job? If you want career advancement, I’m with you. You know what? Like if you feel like your career is stagnant at Ohio State, totally fair. There’s clearly a log jam. Like if Chip Kelly retired tomorrow, Tony Alford wouldn’t have been the OC. You know what I mean? And you have to be a coordinator in most cases before you be a head coach.

Stephen Means (11:13.006)

true.

Jimmy Watkins (11:17.354)

So I get it. But there are so many other places you could go work. There are so many other big 10 places you could go work. Even, you know what? There were so many other times, and just wait two years. If Ohio State beats the crap out of Michigan the next two years, then Tony Alford goes to Michigan? Okay, cool. But they just won the national championship amid all these cheating allegations with the quarterback who said I wanted to kill Ohio State and then kind of did it.

And Jim Harbaugh has been poking at Ohio State’s psyche, calling their coach, calling their coach, saying their coach was born on third base, calling him a trust fund kid basically, like just poking every, he is, he is. And like that’s what Harbaugh was doing. And all that confluence of factors. I think people should, like, honestly, I think people should have been more pissed.

Stephen Means (11:58.905)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (12:04.485)

A trust fund kid in college football perspective.

Jimmy Watkins (12:15.934)

I really do, from a fan base’s perspective. I don’t really care, but I think people should have.

Stephen Means (12:21.993)

I think what happened was...

What won out over the rivalry in this situation was how fans viewed the value of a running backs coach on the staff who, by the way, Tony offered to have some home runs on the recruiting trail. I mean, Travion Henderson’s are home run getting Quinchon Judgkins to come here as a home run. Finding a way to get Trae Sermon to go from.

OK, as Oklahoma running back to that, the end of the 2020 season, he’s turning in the Ezekiel Elliott. That stuff matters. So it’s there’s good things as well. But to the point you made, he’s not Brian Hartline of his staff. You didn’t lose Brian Hartline. You didn’t lose Tim Walden or Larry Johnson. You lost a quality assistant, but a replaceable assistant. So I think that’s what ended up happening here. I think the initial reaction was, what are you doing, dude? Like, that’s where you’re going. Really? And then.

I think the entire fan base, at least the majority of them, took a step back and went, this is the running backs coach, which is why Carlos Loughlin is so ticked off right now because that’s that exact mindset of, this is the running backs coach, guys. It’s the running backs coach. I think we’ll be okay. We’ve had elite running backs before Tony Offord, and we’re gonna have them after Tony Offord.

Jimmy Watkins (13:38.834)

It’s just funny. It’s funny how these things work. The way I see it, there’s just a line in the sand and it doesn’t even really matter where you are in the pecking order. I just felt like the fire was burning as bright as it could possibly burn right now, which is, I think maybe this signifies something else about the rivalry, honestly. Now that Harbaugh’s gone.

Stephen Means (13:59.212)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (14:07.07)

Now that JJ McCarthy is gone, that storylines out of here. Now that, you know, some of the faces of the last few years have exited, maybe we’re just burning a little less hot these days with this rival. And I think that there’s something, this is getting ahead of ourselves, but, you know, beating Michigan probably won’t mean as much next year as it would have this year or the year before, particularly again, if Michigan ends up being like a pedestrian top 25 ish team.

or even a top 20 team as opposed to, this is the team that’s standing in your way for the national championship. Because it’s usually, I was asking people at the spring game on Saturday, Ohio State spring game, would you rather win a national championship or would you rather beat Michigan? I did that last year too. And last year was overwhelmingly, I wanna beat Michigan. Like I can’t stand Jim Harbaugh’s face. This year it’s like, well, I don’t know. Like we really...

Stephen Means (14:57.369)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (15:05.43)

we should beat Michigan. Like it’s almost, I know they’ve lost three games in a row. It’s almost like people are taking that for granted again. And the national championship feels like the thing that’s getting over a hump now. So maybe there’s something within the Tony all for discourse or lack thereof that speaks larger, bigger picture to the rivalry.

Stephen Means (15:08.101)

Mm.

Stephen Means (15:25.353)

I think that’s going to become a generational thing. I think when you’re talking about the older generation, Michigan will always reign supreme because that’s the college football they’ve always known and loved. But I think the younger generation, especially with the changing landscape of the college football playoff, I mean, to be frank about it, in 2022 we almost found out, right? What mattered more? We were...

Jimmy Watkins (15:44.942)

Hmm.

Stephen Means (15:47.125)

you know, of Miss Fieldgold or Marvin Harrison Jr. got not getting knocked out in the second half away from finding out what mattered more to the fans. Yeah, a couple of JJ Interceptions definitely helped that cause. We’ll get in more into JJ as well on this podcast. But I think we were that close in 2022 to finding out what was going to matter more to the fans. Were fans gonna be like, oh, we just won a national championship? Or were they gonna be like, yeah, but we lost.

Jimmy Watkins (15:54.446)

And a couple J.J. interceptions too.

Jimmy Watkins (16:01.006)

Hehehe

Stephen Means (16:13.873)

Michigan on your home floor. So like to your point, I think that’s good. This year might we’ll see. I think we’re all intrigued by what Michigan is going to look like. I think the early projections are right. Eight and four, nine and three. But there was somebody who used to be in my position hosting this pod back in 19 who thought brand new head coach. Wow. So it’s going to go nine and three as it rebuild itself. And then they had one of the best teams in college football. So it’s, it’s going to be an interesting thing to continue. Can you keep our eyes on? Let’s take a quick break there and let’s come back and we’re going to talk about quarterback, which means

Once again, talking about JJ McCarthy, but not in praising him, just more what he was though, Michigan, what he was to this rivalry, but then also where does Michigan go from here on Buckeye Talk.

So I mentioned earlier in the pot, first of all, get the text 614-350-3315. You can tell us how much you hated listening to Michigan talk for 45 minutes, or you can say you loved it just to check in. Listen, you gotta know your enemy, right? You gotta know your enemies. So maybe this was an opportunity for you to do that. Two weeks free trial, 399. After that, I’m Stephen Means and that’s Jimmy Watkins. You kinda chuckled at the idea of JJ McCarthy being a top 10 pick. I don’t know, man. I don’t know if this is...

It’s smoke screens or it’s very much going to happen. But the question I want to ask just in relationship to Ohio State here, because I mean, Marvin Harris is going to be top five pick. So they’re not worried about that. But. And you kind of wrote this after the National Championship game, and I’m almost wondering, is this another layer to this? Ryan Day picks JJ Mc, excuse me, picks Kyle McCord over JJ McCarthy in theory. I don’t know if it’s not always that cut dry.

But the point of the matter is he picked down McCord, JJ McCarthy ends up at Michigan saying he wants to kill Ohio State, spends three years beating them. Two years as a starter and then wins a national title. And you probably look at that and go, Oh, simple, simple analysis. There is Ryan Day picked the wrong quarterback. And does this add another layer to, like I said, simple analysis

Stephen Means (18:14.861)

Kyle McCord has since transferred to Syracuse and JJ McCarthy might be a top 10 draft pick, which is what Ohio state does. They produce first round quarterbacks.

Jimmy Watkins (18:26.206)

I mean, that’s certainly how J.J. McCarthy sees it. And as I think I wrote this after the Michigan-Ohio State game last year, winners write history. So that’s the narrative, man. Because if you want to nitpick, Brian Day wants to go back and nitpick what actually happened there. No one’s going to listen to him, because J.J. McCarthy just beat him twice. So they’re just going to call that cope. Yeah, man. The school board kind of speaks for itself, to that degree. I don’t know that I would draft J.J. McCarthy as a top 10 pick.

Stephen Means (18:44.95)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (18:56.118)

But it seems overwhelmingly likely that somebody is going to in the Minnesota Vikings might just mortgage their future to do it. Like they traded for a pick earlier in the offseason and every freaking mock draft has them trading up for somebody and it seems like JJ would be the most likely available guy after Caleb, Jaden, Daniels, and Drake May. So that JJ McCarthy is maybe like...

Stephen Means (19:04.15)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (19:25.662)

of the modern era, the most important Michigan figure in this rivalry. He’s, again, is he the best Michigan player of this era? No. Was he the best player on the team that won the national championship last year? No. Was he a top five player on that team? I don’t know. But he’s the face of all this because he grew up, and again, how much did J.J. McCarthy even grow up rooting for Ohio State? I don’t know.

Stephen Means (19:31.49)

Mm.

Jimmy Watkins (19:54.326)

But he’s saying he did now because it fits this narrative that he’s running with. He’s the guy who could have been the prince that was promised at Ohio State, then Ryan Day did whatever and ended up taking, and actually, I think it was, I think it might have been CJ Stroud who committed in the summer, or was it McCourt? Okay.

Stephen Means (19:56.353)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (20:11.381)

which is in the vacuum.

Stephen Means (20:16.597)

Well, no, no. So here’s the, here’s the actual story. Cause that was near when it happened. Kyle McCord got an offer, I believe in like January, and then pulled on it in April. And it was just.

Some of this might have just been, you know, their top three guys on their board with J.J. McCarty, Kyle McCord and Drake May at the time, ironically enough, May ends up committing to Alabama. But then I think once the Bryce Young stuff happened, that’s how May ended up flipping to North Carolina. While like you’re talking about two five star quarterbacks. So in a vacuum at the time, it’s not a bad decision that you just pick this five star over this five star. It’s just now that we’re seeing how it’s played out here. This is like almost a what you can answer that question of, did you pick the right quarterback?

Jimmy Watkins (20:36.334)

Mm.

Jimmy Watkins (21:00.322)

Yeah, I just think JJ is such a unique, such a unique figure. I don’t, I wanna, I’m wondering like how much staying power he has. You know what I mean? Like people, people hate Desmond Howard. To this day, people hate Desmond Howard for the role he played in this rivalry. He’s a little bit different cause he’s from Cleveland and ended up committing to Michigan, right? But.

Stephen Means (21:15.865)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (21:26.11)

I want like our Ohio State fans gonna hate JJ McCarthy that same way in 10 to 15 years. I think if they’re gonna dislike anyone from I mean, it’d be hard Bob probably number one, but from a player perspective, he’s got to be the top of the list. He’s the face of it. He’s even I think we’ve talked about this before. He’s so like all-American Netflix looking quarterback. I actually like the kid. But I think he’s got a really punchable face like there’s just

Stephen Means (21:53.101)

Hehehe

Jimmy Watkins (21:54.498)

He’s got something about him. He’s got some, oh, you meditate. You’re the only football player who meditates. All that stuff. There’s a lot around him. Right, I guess I am.

Stephen Means (22:03.073)

You’re looking for the thing that’s wrong with him. And it’s my, it’s nothing. It’s like a record. I think he has like the best winning percentage of any starting quarterback. It mirrors him as a personality. You can’t hate him unless you’re an Ohio State fan. Then you have like Ohio State fans are the only people who seem to see that you have to hate this kid. And that’s what makes him the perfect villain for Ohio State.

Jimmy Watkins (22:12.874)

Yes, yeah, it does.

Jimmy Watkins (22:19.83)

Right. And then.

Jimmy Watkins (22:28.366)

Do you think he has that staying power though? Like, will people still hate him in 10, 15 years? Or feel whatever, not hate’s a strong word, but.

Stephen Means (22:36.577)

It might depend on how life plays out, right? Because part of the reason why Desmond Howard has hated so much, if he’d have just did the Heisman pose and that was kind of it, you know, cause do people hate Woodson? I don’t think that people hate Woodson, but I think Desmond Howard being on college game day being in our faces and just the way he’s handled, plus Mark May is not around anymore. So like, I think the staying power is, does he stay in our faces?

Jimmy Watkins (22:40.811)

Hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (22:50.976)

Mm. That’s fair.

Jimmy Watkins (22:56.291)

Mmm.

Right.

Stephen Means (23:04.661)

because it’s almost like what if Tom Brady had JJ McCarthy’s Michigan career and he’s still Tom Brady? And I’m not saying that’s going to be Tom Brady. I’m just saying if he stays in everybody’s faces over the next 10 to 15 years and it feels like he’s taking his moments to take his shots at Ohio State, then I think I mean, whoever’s doing this podcast in 20 years when they’re doing the most hated Michigan people, I think he can surpass Harbaugh in that situation.

Jimmy Watkins (23:13.951)

I think...

Jimmy Watkins (23:32.674)

Hmm. That’s interesting. To your point about what happens going forward, is the wrinkle that I’m thinking about writing about next week. What if we just never know how good J.J. McCarthy is? Like, what if he’s just, he has a Kirk Cousins career and he’s like, he’s like, he’s like the, the perfect, you’re either like, this is, this is our benchmark for whether a quarterback is good or is bad. You’re, it’s like the people do quarterback tears. It’s like,

Stephen Means (23:48.034)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (23:51.745)

He’s always all winning teams. Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (24:02.414)

Kirk Cousins pejorative, Kirk Cousins compliment, complimentary, it could be, what if J.J. McCarthy, that’s got, J.J. McCarthy is that guy, like if the Vikings draft him, he plays with Jordan Addison and Justin Jefferson, he’s probably gonna look all right. That doesn’t mean, that doesn’t mean he’s, warrants taking him top 10, I don’t think anyone would take Kirk Cousins as a top 10 pick, but if he has that, if he just remains a lightning rod, and that’s, and it’s

Stephen Means (24:06.223)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (24:15.745)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (24:29.734)

Maybe that doesn’t, maybe he’s just Kirk Cousins to the general football public, but to Ohio State fans, like if Kirk Cousins went to Michigan and beat them three times in a row and won a national championship amid a cheating scandal, they would be yelling and screaming in every comment section about how Kirk Cousins isn’t actually an elite quarterback. So that could be another wrinkle to this.

Stephen Means (24:36.087)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (24:41.991)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (24:53.077)

He’s just, he’s such a fascinating individual in this Ohio State-Michigan rivalry because he’s not the first Michigan recruit to say these words under that, right? Maybe not, I’m gonna kill Ohio State, but just the fact that I’m gonna flip the rivalry. A lot of people have said that, but he actually didn’t.

And he did it in a way where it was emphatic. Well, to your point, all this other stuff is happening around him. And now Michigan has to find a way to replace that. What do you know about the Michigan quarterback rivalry? I mean, not robbery, the quarterback battle right now.

Um, are you intrigued by the options that are even on the table right now? Like, just what are you, what are your impressions of that? Because you’re like, we just talk, we’re just talking about JJ McCarthy. Like he’s the greatest thing that’s ever happened to Michigan. And now we’re going, okay, cool. We have to find a guy who’s going to live up to that. Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (25:47.33)

Right, so take that away and now what? So now what is we have a six year college football journey. I like that we have college football journeymen now. Six year college football journeyman Jack Tuttle, who they’re calling, I was watching a Sherone Moore press conference, but they call him Uncle Jack at Michigan. Uncle Jack, he threw the most passes, non-JJ passes last year. So I guess that makes him the default. He was the backup quarterback.

Stephen Means (25:59.542)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (26:16.482)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (26:16.882)

and maybe the leader in this competition? I don’t know. Spoiler alert, I don’t think this competition’s going very well either. I would say we got behind him, we got, okay, by the way, Jack Tuttle has played six college seasons, has six touchdown passes in that six year college career, has played three games in his career.

Stephen Means (26:32.925)

you you’re trying to find it you’re trying to tell a joke I just find consistency

Jimmy Watkins (26:38.91)

One a year, you’re right. Three career games where he’s even attempted more than 20 passes. So just a six-year question mark, which is probably a six-year thumbs down when you’re playing that long. Alex Orogy is the other name that I think people would know. He’s the guy, if you’re not familiar, he’s the guy who ran read option for a couple of plays last year in the Ohio State Michigan game and took one like 25 yards down the sideline. They’ve been pretty complimentary.

Stephen Means (26:39.787)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (27:05.358)

clump memory of him as a passer in spring camp, but like he’s thrown one career pass. So I don’t know. We got Davis Warren, who was part of the backup quarterback conversation last year. Not a whole, I mean, like they, they say he’s got a mix of everyone in that, in that quarterback room. I don’t know what that means. Because the first guy I just, first two guys I just said have thrown six, has thrown six touchdowns in his six year career. And the other guy’s thrown one pass.

So what does a mix of that look like? I couldn’t tell you. And then they got Jaden Denigal, who’s a former three-star quarterback in the 2022 class, more of a pocket passer. Again, this is just what Sharon Moore says about these guys. I would never pretend to have watched enough film on these guys to know what their deal is. But he’s thrown, I think, maybe five passes in his career. And then we have Jaden Davis, who has a lot of potential. I think eventually he’s the next five-star guy, but can you really afford to start a true freshman?

Jimmy Watkins (28:40.482)

What I’m trying to say here is, they’re going into the transfer portal. Like the next starting quarterback at Michigan is most likely not on the roster right now, in my opinion. And again, I have run this opinion past a few people who cover Michigan. I’m not the only one who has it. So with that, I don’t know who’s going to be in the transfer portal. I know that Michigan just announced last week or somewhat recently that they’re trying to up their NIL efforts.

I don’t think that’s a coincidence that we’re saying that as the spring portal opens for potential quarterbacks. I think my dream, if you’re asking me, if you want to put the juice back in this rivalry, Devin Brown, Michigan quarterback, let’s go. I don’t think Devin Brown’s going anywhere. I don’t think he’s going anywhere, but that’d be really fun, wouldn’t it? Wouldn’t it be fun? Who’s even like, if we were doing like a NFL free agency, best available, who could be on the market?

Stephen Means (29:41.828)

If you guys are not aware of this shit, Jimmy loves chaos. He likes a lot of chaos. I’m not this time around. I’m not with you, but just the in general concept of if I’m not one of these playoff teams. Now, mission is a playoff team when they’re when they’re all cooking and being what they’re supposed to be. But if I’m not a playoff team and you see Ohio State recruiting quarterbacks the way it does, I think we’ve had this conversation before on the pod at times.

Jimmy Watkins (29:47.414)

I do like chaos.

Stephen Means (30:10.82)

Why not whoever loses the battle? Go get that guy. Because at worst, Ohio State’s backup quarterback is a starting quarterback in like 85% of college football. That’s how good the room is. Quick story though, before we move on this, Jack Tuttle and Jaden Davis both have Ohio State connections. Jack Tuttle once recruited by Ryan Day, but the best thing that Jack Tuttle being recruited by Ryan Day did is one day he went out to go see Jack Tuttle out there in California, and the person Jack Tuttle happened to be thrown to,

Chris O’Lave it. So some good came out of this, you know? The other thing, I’m serious. That’s the Chris O’Lave genesis story for Ohio State. And then there’s Jaden Davis who at one point, I think a lot of us thought he would be Ohio State’s quarterback in that 2024 class. And then obviously ended with Dylan Rayola and then he flips to Georgia and then he flips to Nebraska. So he’s still in the big 10 for now. And then obviously they end up with Aaron Nolan and now Julian Sand is here as well. So it’s.

It just sounds like there’s a smorgasbord of options for Michigan at quarterback, just like with Ohio state right now. But when you say it with Ohio state, it’s with a positive connotation. While with Michigan, it’s more of a, I don’t want to say negative connotation, but more of a, there’s a good chance Michigan comes out of this game on Saturday and still doesn’t know what it has.

Jimmy Watkins (31:30.922)

I need to go get somebody sloppy seconds. If I could put it another way, they did like, it doesn’t sound like this could happen. Call Arch Manning every day. Call him twice a day. Make him block your number. Do something because right now your options aren’t good enough. Like Michigan, honestly, I think I feel good enough about Michigan’s most other things. Like I feel I’m writing for tomorrow like.

I know Michigan just lost six offensive linemen to the NFL slash graduation, but the guy who built that and sustained their tradition on the offensive line is the head coach now. So I’m going to give Sharon the benefit of the doubt and he’d kill. He gives me a reason not to on that front. Still got Donovan Edwards. You still got some guys who have played, guys like Tyler Morris, Simaj Morgan, receivers who with experience, Tyler Morris, I think is like their highest rated recruit that they’ve gotten at that position since like.

Donovan Peoples-Jones. So like, I think they’re expecting a lot on him. Colston Loveland should be a pretty high draft pick next year on offense. Will Johnson’s back. Rod Moore got hurt, which is unfortunate. McCarrie Page, there’s some incumbency in the secondary there. Mason Graham, Kenneth Grant’s still gonna be dudes. Derek Moore on the edge, Josiah Stewart on the edge. Replacing two starting linebackers. The defensive culture’s pretty strong there, and they’re not really changing much about their system.

I feel pretty good about everything else except their quarterback. If they can pull a heist in the portal, maybe they can be a fringe playoff team. I just don’t know who the guy is.

Stephen Means (33:09.668)

So I’ll save that question for after the break here. I think that’s, let’s stop there with the quarterback conversation. I think that’s, that pretty much sums it up. You’ve got two, both sides of the rivalry trying to figure out the quarterback situation. Both sides have a lot of options. One side has options that you may be a little bit more optimistic about to the point that we’re talking about a freshman quarterback potentially being in this conversation.

Jimmy Watkins (33:30.602)

Yes, sides that have, that side has guys who have played football before. So yeah, we’re a little bit more optimistic about them.

Stephen Means (33:36.728)

Right. But even, I mean, listen, Julian Sand hasn’t played much. And we’re talking about him. He’s the next great quarterback in college football. But it’s just, I know. But Michigan also has a freshman quarterback. And he’s not in that conversation. So it’s just interesting to see how that’s played out. Let’s take a last quick break here, and then we’ll get into that, some expectations for what we think Michigan can be next season. But then also, a couple of reasons why.

Jimmy Watkins (33:44.059)

Man, that hype train was going.

Stephen Means (34:03.852)

Michigan could still be a threat to Ohio State here on Buckeye Talk.

Stephen Means (00:00.247)

Okay, cool. I’m done. I’m done complaining. For now. And we’re back here on Buckeye Talk and I’m Stephen Means. I’m joined by Jimmy Watkins as we’re previewing Michigan Spring Game, but we’re not really, I wouldn’t say even previewing Michigan Spring Game. We’re more just checking in on Ohio State’s roster to see what’s going on over there as we’re a little more than six months away from the game.

Jimmy Watkins (00:20.535)

We are Drake, Michigan is Rick Ross, and we are calling Wale and Meek Mill to figure out, trying to find some skeletons in Rick Ross’s closet so I can call him a broke boy on Instagram.

Stephen Means (00:32.415)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (00:35.687)

As you can tell, both Jimmy and I are both under the age of 35. With that reference. That’s what that means.

Jimmy Watkins (00:40.93)

Hey, if you understood that reference, send a text, Drake or Kendrick.

Stephen Means (00:45.083)

614-350-3315. That’s where we’re at in the off season, ladies and gentlemen. We’re talking about rap beefs. Okay. We’ve said a lot of things about Michigan through the first 30 to 40 minutes of this pod. And I think if you’re listening to this as an Ohio State fan, you’re going, oh, this might get ugly in November. And maybe you were already thinking that. One side lost a lot of players to graduation into the NFL draft, lost a huge chunk of not only its coaching staff,

But we’re talking about fundamental pieces of its football program, its strength and conditioning coach left for Los Angeles Chargers as well. So it’s, Jim Harbaugh took a lot when he decided to leave Michigan. While the other side, not only did Ryan Day kind of reload everybody not named Marvin Harrison Jr. basically, when you’re talking about the top tier weapons. I mean, to be frank, of the guys who were starter level players that they lost, Marvin Harrison Jr., Tommy Eichenberg, and Michael Hall Jr.

And the only, there’s only one of those spots where you feel like, and even at that spot, I don’t know, you might still think even with losing Marvin Harrison Jr, the wide receiver rule might be just as good or maybe even better, because Jeremiah Smith’s in that room. So Ohio State reloaded while Michigan’s kind of in this interesting place of what the heck is going on in there. But they still won three games in a row. And this is a rivalry, and rivalries have psychological details to them that other games don’t have.

Right. And Ryan Day, as loaded as this roster is, he knows, just like every player who came back to play in that game, that there’s some stuff on the line in that game from a cultureistic perspective of how we talk about this game. So whether it’s actual football stuff or just maybe you think Ohio State might get the yips that day, whatever you want to say, but just

some reasons why you think Michigan is still a threat to win that game, even if every tangible piece of evidence tells us that game might be a three score game.

Jimmy Watkins (02:52.834)

So a couple things. I think that Michigan, what we’re basically, there’s no, I think there is 0% chance, either Sharon Moore is the greatest coach of all time, or there is 0% chance that Michigan blows out Ohio State. I think we can all agree with that this fall. Or again, they get arch manning and changes the trajectory of the program. But like, that’s probably not gonna happen. So Michigan would be trying to win a close game where, again,

Stephen Means (03:08.275)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (03:20.682)

What we saw of Sharon last year as a play caller, he’s trying to shrink the game, wear the clock down a little bit and just keep possession, wear down your defense and make you sweat a little bit as an opposing play caller, quarterback, whatever, because you’re not sure how many possessions you’re going to get after this. And I think they still have the tools in place to do that. Donovan Edwards.

had a very weird season last year until he broke off two big runs in the national championship game, but that dude’s still really talented. He still ran for 200 yards against Ohio state two years ago and they have, I mean behind him, Kaleo Mullings played a decent amount last year as well. He looked pretty good. So they still, they’re still going to have, that might be a, a defining characteristic that, that endures after the Harbaugh era is the running backs continue to, um,

Stephen Means (03:49.609)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (04:16.566)

continue to be a strength of that program, which makes sense if you’re going to continue the tradition of offensive lineman, who doesn’t wanna run behind a great offensive line, right? Again, as I mentioned previously, I trust Sharone implicitly to build an offensive line because he’s done it the last two years after losing two starters both times. Nothing as extreme as this, where again, they lose five starters and a rotation guy, but like they have...

Miles Hinton, a guy they got in the transfer portal last year, former top 100 recruit. That’s a foundational piece you could build around. They’ve got Josh Spree, I think is his name from Northwestern, a transfer who’s played if not, he’s played three years in the big time. I think he started for two or three. He’s familiar with what Big Ten football means. And it just seems like when Michigan gets these dudes out of the portal, yes, they sprinkle a little fairy dust on them. All of a sudden they’re winning Remington Awards. He’s a guard, not a

Olu and Drake Nugent came from other programs, got to Michigan. Now, Olu won the Remington Award. Drake Nugent might be a day two draft pick. You know, so they’ve got those two guys and they’ve got just the, they have returners who have played in spots, but not, we don’t know their name because they haven’t been starters, right? But they’ve been in that program long enough. They’ve been in Sherrone’s Moore, the Sherrone Moore’s camp for blocking long enough.

or I just trust that that’s going to gel at some point. So I think if you put those two together and you get a quarterback who just doesn’t screw the pooch, you can get yourself into a situation where it’s 20 to 17 and there’s a fourth and three decision that Ryan Day has to make. And he has proven to us that he’s just, there’s something going on when he sees Michigan on the other side, he does not.

Stephen Means (05:54.395)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (06:13.806)

think as clearly because he knows how much this game means to so much people and it blocks his train of thought a little bit. The other thing I would say, so I would say the running back, the offensive line, enough for Turner’s on defense to where they’re able to compete with Ohio State’s all-star cast of skilled players. And then I would say like, we still got to look inward at Ohio State a little bit. Like the offensive line is experienced.

But what they experienced last year, not great. Like I know you have to be bad and mediocre before you become good, but it’s not automatic. And that group still has a lot to prove, I think. I mean, the lasting image of last year’s game is Kyle McCord not getting a pass off because Michigan got pressure, right? So there’s that. And then like, we’re kind of, I’m not like, we still have a question mark at quarterback. I think I’m pretty convinced it’s gonna be Will Howard.

How much better is Will Howard than Kyle McCord? I don’t know. How much of an adjustment is, like how much does Chip Kelly going to change things from what Ryan Day does? I don’t know, but there’s enough question marks and key spots on this side, on the Ohio State set. Defense, like Ohio State might, Michigan might score three points in that game. That outcome is very much on the table. This defense could be all time good, but.

Stephen Means (07:36.148)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (07:40.106)

If Michigan can just do what they were doing on that fourth quarter drive that we talked about all the time, run the ball three yards at a time and do it, or maybe three and a half yards at a time. Do that three times a series. It just gets everyone’s collars a little bit tighter. And if they can be one of those teams, which again, when you’re one of these teams that relies on your trench play and runs the ball a lot, and you have a good defense, these are the kinds of teams that tend to get better over time.

If they can do all of these things and make it close in the fourth quarter with Ohio State, now you’re in like St. Peter’s, Purdue territory where the little guys hanging around too long and you’re just making uncharacteristic decisions because you feel all the weight and they’re playing as free as they possibly can, which is crazy because they’ve won three games in a row. Michigan’s won three games in a row in this series. They’re defending national champions and all of the pressure is going to be on Ohio State next fall.

Stephen Means (08:27.223)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (08:39.831)

Is, I’m kind of asking two questions at once here, so bear with me. I’m finding a wrap away way to talk about this. Is offensive line for Sharon Moore, do you view that the same way as you view quarterbacks at Ohio State with Ryan Day, where it’s like, until it’s, you’re just gonna assume it’s gonna be good until the play on the field shows you otherwise.

Jimmy Watkins (09:03.03)

This is literally what I’m writing tomorrow is like, Sharon Moore, what did Ryan Day do? How was Ryan Day to our earlier point? What was Ryan Day going to do to put his imprint on this program? The answer was he didn’t really know. But here’s one thing I do know how to do is recruit quarterbacks and develop quarterbacks. So I’m gonna do that. And I know that’s really important. And then experience will teach me the rest, right? You can only know what you know going into a job and then.

experiences to teach you to do the rest. So I think that’s what Sheremore is going to do. I think he’s going to say, look, I don’t know how I’m going to differentiate myself from Jim Harbaugh right now. I’m going to try to do things as close as I can to what he did, because he obviously did a great job. But here’s what I know I can do. I know I can recruit and develop offensive linemen like nobody’s business. And I know that if I do that, we can run the ball and we’ll have a good defense on the other side. We can play complimentary football and that could take you a long way.

So yes, 100%, that’s how I’m looking at it. And I think it’s just another, as much as I was just saying, I think we’ve lost a little juice in this rivalry. There’s still that fascinating mix of like, Ohio State’s kind of the seven on seven program and Michigan’s kind of the, we wear pads when we’re not supposed to program.

Stephen Means (10:22.99)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (10:27.011)

It’s wonderful, right? They’re opposite in every way, and yet they’re both good. And on top of the fact that they hate each other. And what made it great last year was their head coaches literally hated each other. It wasn’t like, oh, I don’t like, I respect you.

Jimmy Watkins (10:29.002)

That’s great. Styles make fights, man.

Stephen Means (10:47.615)

because you’re a great coach, but at least, but I hate you because of who you coach for. You know, like Woody and Bo, they were like friends and they hung out after, and they, you know, they had respect for each other. Lloyd Carr, Jim Trestle had respect for each other. I don’t know if Jim Harbaugh and Ervin Meyer cared for each other, but they didn’t hate each other. Ryan Day and Jim Harbaugh hated each other by the end of this.

Jimmy Watkins (10:51.288)

Right.

Stephen Means (11:12.027)

And you know that because both got asked that we do you respect the other coach and both of them said every word, but yes, which means no, I, I like that guy. I don’t know if it’s going to be the same thing with Sharon Moore and Ryan day. We’ll see, have to see how that evolves because Simone is so new to this, but it’s just, they’re everything you want in the rivalry right now, even with what’s Michigan’s, but even that it’s like Michigan just won a national championship and now it looks like they’re in turmoil.

Jimmy Watkins (11:22.722)

Different.

Stephen Means (11:40.047)

Ohio State’s coming off some turmoil and now it looks like they’re a college football wrecking crew destined to win a national title this year. All that’s going to collide this year. I think that’s so interesting. Last thing I want to ask you before I let you get out of here, and it’s just because we watched it play out last year and one guy’s going through the draft process right now and the other guy’s not. And also they played opposite positions. You’ve watched enough Will Johnson and you watched Marvin Harrison Jr. and it feels like Will Johnson is about

12 months away from being talked about as a cornerback, the way Marvin Harrison Jr. at times has been talked about as a wide receiver prospect. And on, I mean, we’re seven days from the draft starting. If you, if I asked you, which do you think is a better draft prospect, Will Johnson as a cornerback going into the 2025 draft where he’s clearly going to be the first guy taken, or Marvin Harrison, who as CJ Stroud said, don’t be dumb, is going to be clearly the first wide receiver taken in the 2024 draft.

Who do you think is a better prospect just based off two years of watching those two guys get the line up on each other?

Jimmy Watkins (12:45.522)

Man, that’s interesting. Okay, so I mean, I think the answer, boring answer is Marvin, because there’s just so much certainty there. And by the way, we watched the matchup and Will Johnson did a quote unquote good job on Marvin, still put triple digits on him last year in that game. So, let’s sidebar.

Stephen Means (13:03.115)

So, okay, let’s just do that. Just real quick, just sidebar. What do you value, especially this past year, like last year, yeah, I mean, Marvin, he’s not the reason they lost in 2022. And neither is the Mecha Boogaloo, both of those guys had 100 yards. Do you value that, the fact this past year, Marvin having 100 yards in a touchdown versus Will Johnson basically having the interception that decided the game?

Jimmy Watkins (13:27.039)

I mean, I value winning. I don’t, and here’s the thing, I value winning, but that interception.

Stephen Means (13:32.267)

That’s a great way to say you value Marvin Harrison Jr. having a better day.

Jimmy Watkins (13:36.938)

But here’s the thing, here’s the other thing. Will Johnson’s interception that decided the game was not Marvin Harrison Jr’s fault, in my opinion. I know people that people were saying that he could have fought more for that ball or whatever. That’s because Kyle McCord was locked in on one read and threw it. That’s why that interception happened. Will Johnson was watching tape. He was like, this guy’s gonna throw this ball every time. I’m gonna jump it. And then he did it. That’s not Marvin Harrison Jr’s fault. I just value...

Stephen Means (13:45.793)

Clear.

Stephen Means (13:57.259)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (14:07.254)

When we’re talking draft prospects, I value, if you’re on the same field, who won more? Not necessarily the score, but Marvin Harrison Jr. won more. I mean, I’m trying to remember, was Will Johnson the quarterback on the play where McCor just threw it up there on the right sideline and Marv had a Michigan player flying off his back like a cape and he still made the catch with one hand? So there you go. That’s my answer.

Stephen Means (14:27.432)

I think he was, yeah.

Stephen Means (14:32.488)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (14:36.79)

while Marvin Harrison Jr. is getting all this attention on the field, it does not hurt him that he played with a bunch of other really good wide receivers, and he played in an offense that has a track record of producing incredible passing offense, whereas Will Johnson is kind of like the standard bearer for Michigan’s defensive backroom, right? Like there’s never, it has been a long time since there’s been a Will Johnson at Michigan.

Stephen Means (15:02.048)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (15:05.758)

And there was no one’s, there’s nowhere to, no one else is getting attention. It’s hard to make that one to one comparison because one’s a corner and one’s a receiver. But like, Will Johnson’s going against, he has nowhere to, okay, I’m not even saying this right because Marvin Harrison Jr., I was gonna say he has no one, he has to go against the top guy every time, but Marvin Harrison Jr. has to go against two guys most of the time. So I think the answer is just Marvin. I tried to have fun. I can’t do it. He’s better.

Stephen Means (15:22.235)

No, I think I understand what you’re saying. I think...

Stephen Means (15:27.53)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (15:33.511)

No, and plus, I mean, following in college football is not normal. That’s, I mean, it’s not even normal in the NFL. You’ve got to be a different level of a corner to do that. And Michigan had Will Johnson following Marvin Harrison Jr. all over the field. That should tell you. And they were and bracketing him that. But just that matchup was still very, very interesting. The fact that he was following him all over the field, the fact that both of them had opportunities where they were winning. It was a healthy back and forth, even if you felt like Marvin Harrison Jr. won today, plus.

Jimmy Watkins (15:45.33)

And they were bracketing him. They had a safety over the top too.

Stephen Means (16:02.463)

Both of those guys, athlete fathers, Will Johnson’s father played at Michigan. So he was athlete fathers as well. I just wanted to pick your brain about that because both of those guys are clearly the top die in their respective draft classes. And we got to see two years of those two guys going head to head where no matter where you fall on who won the day, I think both of those guys had their moments where it felt like they got the better of the other person. And that’s just something else that we can add to this rivalry as well.

Jimmy Watkins (16:08.974)

Can I get a JJ?

Jimmy Watkins (16:30.606)

Yeah, real quick, can we get a JJ take from you? You and I are both JJ connoisseurs. We both love the recklessness with which he plays at times. So what’s your JJ draft take?

Stephen Means (16:38.197)

It’s...

Stephen Means (16:44.735)

he would be perfect for the 49ers. That’s what it is. I just, in all seriousness, I think he is just the most, and this is because I cover Ohio State. I understand that. So my view of quarterbacks has been vastly upgraded by what I’ve been allowed to watch. My first year on the beat, I watched Dwayne Haskins throw 50 freaking touchdown passes, man.

I watched Justin Fields for two years. The first game of his second year as a starter against Nebraska, he had more touchdowns and incompletions in the game. And then I watched CJ for two years look like that’s what an NFL starting quarterback franchise looks like. That’s just what it looks like. Even at 19 years old, he’s what it looks like. I was never really out on CJ, even when it was rough to start that 21 season because he was making throws at him just like.

I’m not supposed to be watching this in a college football game. This is supposed to be a professional athlete. So because of that, it skews my opinion of what JJ is, but it also allowed me to appreciate a quarterback on a normal development trajectory. And it also made me appreciate, not Michigan, or Ohio State in this manner, but just two different teams who understand what their quarterback is.

Right? You can hand the keys to CJ Stroud and go, please go win us the game. JJ McCarthy, I think over the last two years, went from please don’t lose us this game to almost that’s it. Bennett like of we’re going to give you these small little sprinkle moments that matter in the macro. Excuse me. It matter in the micro, but not in the macro, because we trust you to do it in the right moments.

I think that’s what I always appreciated about JJ, which is why I love the way Sheryl Moore talked about him after the Michigan-Ohio State game, where he’s like, you just gotta live with it, man. That’s JJ. Yeah, you live with it in the Ohio State game, but in the Penn State game, you go, we’re gonna run the ball. You only gotta throw it seven times. But it’s, I appreciate coaches who know what they have in maximizing it. And that’s what JJ McCarthy has been, but to the points you made earlier in the pod,

Stephen Means (19:02.131)

Does this dude go to the NFL and it’s like, what? Wait, you’ve been that the entire time? Seriously? You could have been doing this. Or is it just going to be like, is Cam Newton going to get on his pod and add JJ McCarthy to the Brock Purdy game manager conversation? And I think that’s why I’m so intrigued by him.

Jimmy Watkins (19:21.238)

He’s just a fat, he’s the perfect draft prospect. Whatever take you wanna have on him, you can argue it. The thing that has been blowing my mind this draft cycle, again, I’m not the level of film grinder that like, I don’t know if some of, Mina Kimes or Dan Orlovsky is, but like I’m seeing some of, people like that saying like, what I really like about JJ McCarthy is that he always plays on time. And you know, he’s a perfect, like you just said, perfect Shanahan quarterback.

Stephen Means (19:47.094)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (19:51.438)

And how much of that is because Michigan’s ecosystem allowed him to play on time. You know what I mean? How much of that is because the protection is good, they’re throwing basically only when they want to, not always the case, but mostly the case, only throwing when they want to, and the throws are there because Michigan doesn’t have Ohio State skill talent, but compared to the rest of the Big Ten, those guys are getting open.

Stephen Means (19:56.337)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (20:05.445)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (20:20.082)

and the scheme is working and they weren’t running a lot of hard play action. I just wonder if he gets to, if he gets a team like Minnesota that needs a lot of help on defense, even if he has great receivers, first of all, I’m locked into every fourth quarter that they’re playing because J.J. McCarthy down 30 to 23, literally every income is he could, he could throw the ball backwards through the uprights. I wouldn’t be surprised, but I just think that there’s, there’s at the end of the day, I lean a little bit more towards.

Stephen Means (20:20.139)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (20:35.488)

Oh my-

Jimmy Watkins (20:49.358)

There’s a reason that they were, and it’s not just that they could run the ball whenever they wanted. There’s a reason they kept the guardrails up.

Stephen Means (20:57.655)

Yeah, a couple other things and then we’ll close out. The other reasons why, I love it. There’s a reason why it was so successful and there’s a reason they did things a certain way. And are we going, are fans, are people who watch the NFL wherever he goes gonna find out that reason was a good thing or that reason was a negative thing? But from the Ohio State’s perspective, the other reasons I love JJ, it’s been a while.

since this rivalry has had like modern day villains, right? A lot of the villains we talk about are from, I mean, when we were toddlers and they still matter, but who’s the new villains in this? Who are the people where, when they’re making the documentaries about the Ohio State, Michigan era of late past 2000, we’re talking 2010s, early 2020s, who are the villains in that story? And JJ has been the perfect villain.

from the moment he committed to Michigan. And he walks out the door, the perfect villain. And I think this rivalry needed that again. They needed some hatred. And maybe Michigan flipping the rivalry over the last two years has allowed that hatred to grow. Cause the hatred is always gonna be there. But it’s a different hatred when you know that the person you hate can actually, you know.

Add to your hatred, give you reasons to be frustrated with them again, other than just, I don’t know, cause it’s Michigan, we don’t call them Michigan, we call them team up north. We play them at the end of the year, we know how it matters, that’s culture. But every so often you need a reminder, a tangible reminder for why you hate that team. And he was the physical embodiment of that as he meditated under the goalpost before every game and then did everything under the sun that screams

Oh, this is not a good quarterback, but he’s winning. I also, but, and I’ll close with this. I understand watching him play the last few years, I understand why Ryan Day didn’t go with him as the quarterback. I don’t think that’s, and I don’t mean that negatively towards either side. It’s just, you look at Ohio State’s quarterbacks, obviously I’ve been covering Ryan Day his entire time being the head coach here. You listen to him and how he talks about quarterbacks, what’s important. We were just at the coaches clinic last week and you were hearing some of the stuff they do with young quarterbacks. I understand.

Jimmy Watkins (22:59.98)

Mmm.

Stephen Means (23:18.331)

why they didn’t go with Ryan Day. It’s because he doesn’t want that sporadic element because when it’s sporadic, you get the TCU game. But when it works, you win a national title.

Jimmy Watkins (23:30.114)

again.

Jimmy Watkins (23:35.478)

Did it work? Did sporadic JJ work? I mean, it worked in moments. Like the throw, the touchdown pass to Roman Wilson, that’s a sporadic JJ moment. There’s the throw on the sideline in the fourth quarter, I think, the second half of that game. That’s a sporadic JJ moment. But it was mostly like, drive the car straight, JJ. That’s the thing. JJ, that’s the other thing about JJ, people saying, oh, he’s always playing on schedule. He doesn’t want to.

Stephen Means (23:44.982)

Yes.

Yes.

Stephen Means (23:54.483)

Yeah. But-

Jimmy Watkins (24:02.346)

His natural instinct is to run around and play like Patrick Mahomes. And that’s the other thing about, that’s the other thing about, yes. And that’s the other thing about, that makes him so hateable. Like you said, he does all these things that makes you think he’s not a great quarterback. And then fricking Jim Harbaugh compares him to Patrick Mahomes. He’s like trolling you. He’s trolling you.

Stephen Means (24:05.935)

No, no, no. He still, yeah, yeah. His driver instructor is always right next to him with the brakes under him like it’s an in-car.

Stephen Means (24:22.731)

No, I know, I know, I know. It’s, but to the point of the reason why I was bringing up the, I understand why Ryan Day didn’t go after him. Did the sporadic thing work? I mean, they won a national championship, so yes, it worked. But you can’t live like that forever. You just get hot sometimes and it works out in your favor. But also it’s another prime difference between these two programs. When you’re talking about recruiting talent.

Ohio State’s quarterback doesn’t have to always do special things every game. They have to have a special trait. And Nathan and I talk about all the time, but it doesn’t, every game isn’t going to require that the games against in the playoffs are probably going to require that because that’s what football is, but most of the time. I mean, you got over the years, Garrett Wilson, Chris Olavi, Jackson, but the jake, but Marvin Harrison, Jr. the Mecca, Bucca, carnell, Tate, Brandon, and it’s now, I mean, Jeremiah Smith, who, I mean.

My Lord. It’s just Trevion Henderson. J.K. like there’s always you don’t have to. Ryan Day said all of them, you don’t have to do special things. Just make the routine things look routine. JJ doesn’t have that. Michigan’s quarterback, as we just got done talking about, they might not be that. But also, we’re not sure if their roster has that this year because they lost so much. So to bring this full circle and we’ll close out with this on November 30th, whether it’s Will Howard or Devin Brown.

Will there be some moments where they might have to be Superman? Sure, maybe. I don’t know. But I know for sure that Michigan’s quarterback is going to have to be Superman at some point because that’s it. But that’s just the way the rosters are constructed. It’s not about this year. That’s just how things are constructed where J.J. McCarthy had to do what CJ Stroud did it against Georgia every game. CJ Stroud only has to do that.

Jimmy Watkins (25:57.518)

Oh boy.

Jimmy Watkins (26:01.762)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (26:13.523)

from the end of November through December, January, February. And Ohio State’s quarterback only has to do that November, December, January, February. Michigan’s quarterback has to do that for 12 weeks. And I think my conclusion is, regardless of who the starting quarterback is for Ohio State, I’m sure they can do what is required of them as the starting quarterback. We’re...

Michigan starting quarterback is going to be required to do more because he has less. And I don’t think right now you’re saying there is a person on the roster capable of doing that the way that JJ McCarthy could do it at times over the last two years.

Jimmy Watkins (26:50.382)

I mean, I think that honestly the way the roster is constructed right now, like if there’s no, they don’t make any quarterback additions in the portal, which would positively stun me. Like, we’re looking at the ideal game script as Penn State. Like we, like we’re going to maybe have you load up and throw a deep play action bomb five, three times a game and have you throw almost exclusively over the middle, like very little drop back passing, very little.

Stephen Means (27:00.193)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (27:12.064)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (27:20.438)

very little creation on your own. But like you’re saying, you don’t have the skill talent and you run into people who have equal or gasp better talent in other positions. Like Jack Tuttle ain’t making the scrambling throw on the sideline that JJ made last year. He’s not, he might not make the throw that ended up being a touchdown to Roman Wilson. And that might be the best decision because I think it.

Stephen Means (27:25.024)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (27:38.789)

No.

Jimmy Watkins (27:46.282)

Whichever Malik Hartford I think was the safety on that play. If he turns his head the right way, it’s an interception. We have a completely different game, right? So I don’t know, maybe there’s a, you could even, Michigan could spin this as, like at least we have more of a control element over our quarterback. Like maybe our offense can be a little bit more structured because our quarterback can’t do the things out of structure. But like you’re saying, they need someone who’s gonna be able to do things out of structure if they’re serious about trying to.

Stephen Means (27:49.472)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (28:14.634)

defend their title in any way. So that means they’re gonna need to go get someone else or we’re just gonna have to see something from one of the guys who are already in that room that we just haven’t seen before.

Stephen Means (28:24.127)

So Michigan Spring Game on Saturday on Fox, if you want to check in on what your enemy is doing and just take a quick way too early look at what Michigan could look like in 2024. We’re going to have a Michigan week in May, just like we did last year and we’ll probably touch more on Michigan. Hopefully that was an enjoyable part for you. Hopefully you came out of this with some optimism about what that.

2024 game is going to look like. Well, also just some intriguing conversation to have. Get the text if, and if you hated it, you can still text us. I get it. It’s Michigan and Mrs. Buckeye Talks. 614-350-3315, two week free trial, 399 after that. Nathan and Andrew will be back on Friday. We’re gonna start some draft prep. I’ve got some fun stuff planned.

for the draft, talking about, you know, Ohio State’s draft development under Ryan Day. Obviously we always predict where guys are gonna go in the draft and then the draft’s next week. So 614-350-3315, two week free trial, theme 99 after that. For Jimmy Watkins, I’m Stephen Means, and that was Ohio State’s rated, hated rival Buckeye talk.